cleireac wrote:Winston, if I read you correctly, are you suggesting that sin was inevitable? Full disclosure, I come from a Wesleyan background that holds to the possibility of a sinless life after salvation. What you seem to be describing is that sin is a result of created physical limitations and not the choices we make. As Wesley observed, sin is a transgression of the known will of God, and this lack of godly holiness is what makes us "miss the mark," to paraphrase the words of Paul.
Again, not trying to be contentious, but wanting to understand what you're saying here.
And I appreciate the dialog!
I also agree with Wesley's observation as you put it. I think it is a very helpful guideline.
Is sin the result of created physical limitations? No. Jesus had a created physical body that was in every way identical to any other person. Jesus lived a sinless life. Sin has nothing to do with physicality.
Is sin inevitable? That's more complicated. We are told that the atoning sacrifice was ordained from the creation of the world. This means that before God created Adam and Eve He enacted a plan of salvation. Why should this be the case? The whole record of the salvation plan is predicated upon a series of events created by the choices made by millions of people over a span of thousands of years well before those choices were even made possible. As one simple example: what if Ruth had gleaned from Boaz's neighbor instead?
Without choice, the concept of sin is meaningless. Where does that choice come from? What are its influences? Free will does not exist as some nebulous thing unconnected to reality. One could effectively argue that there is no such thing as free will, as a choice completely uninfluenced by some outside factor. The whole question is tremendously complicated. "There is no condemnation without knowledge of the law." "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."
Can we live a sinless life after salvation? Study Wesley some more. What does the Lesser Scottish Catechism tell us? Ezekiel and Paul both confirm that a sinless life is possible when referring to the King of Tyre and Adam respectively. But... "There are none that are righteous, no not one." Sanctification is the process that connects the twin points of justification and glorification that come before and after life. The purpose of living apart from conscious sin is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
To be clear and specific:
God has ordained every moment of history to occur in one single specific way, there can be no deviation.
Every relevant moment in history is the result of a conscious choice by a human being at a point when the alternative was perfectly viable.
God has chosen specific individuals to enjoy His presence for eternity and specific individuals to not do so. This choice was made before those individuals were created and without their consent.
Every individual will enjoy or reject God's presence because of a conscious opportunity to do so when the alternative is perfectly viable.
These statements are affirmed by scripture. It is a central mystery of the faith.