"Where We Went Wrong With Ravi [Zacharias]"

The Ravi Zacharias scandal is heart-breaking. So many women were hurt by him and his double life. I can't imagine the struggles they went through while people continued to put Ravi on a pedestal while they dismissed them as liars and gold diggers. And I can't imagine what it must be like for his family to find out that the father and husband they loved and trusted was doing all this behind their backs.

I've been watching a few videos from online apologists reacting to the revelations. Ray Comfort's video stood out to me because his heart-based approach to apologetics seems to conflict with Ravi's thought-based approach, at least in Ray's eyes.

So have a look at the first three minutes of this video (up until the street interview) and see what you think of his take. I myself am conflicted.

If Comfort is saying that Ravi's approach was all head and no heart, or all argument and no gospel, he's just ignorant of Ravi's content. In fact, Ravi himself spoke many times of the need for engaging both the emotions and the intellect. Sounds like Comfort has problems with intellectual arguments for Christianity and is using this situation to bolster his position.

The truth is we can also cite scripture that affirms the value of logic and reason. Paul's writing is incredibly logically structured at times, even using classic logical formulas. As Paul said, he became all things to all men. There is a time for heart AND a time for head. Sometimes one, sometimes both. And a good apologist knows that arguments do not bring people into the kingdom, but they CAN and DO allow people to consider Jesus, without the distraction of seemingly logical doubts.

I like some of Comfort's work. But this seems to expose a weakness in him. The problem with Zacharias was his approach to personal sanctification, not his use of intellectual arguments in teaching. And to conflate the two only seems to confirm Comfort's weakness in the area of logic and reason.

I'm with winger on this. I loved Ravi's teaching but we have to hold our leaders to higher standards. Here's what winger said.
https://youtu.be/PcWeZS3cnNo

JDMTheGreat wrote:I'm with winger on this. I loved Ravi's teaching but we have to hold our leaders to higher standards. Here's what winger said.
https://youtu.be/PcWeZS3cnNo

I haven't gotten to Mike Winger's video about it yet, but I'm with him on pretty much everything he teaches, so I expect to agree. His is the longest video I've seen on the subject.




David Wood also went in-depth with it:




Jon McCray, Mike Licona, and Melissa Dougherty were comparatively brief but still well-worth hearing:









I heard that RZIM U.K announced that they would change their name and disassociate themselves from the main branch of the ministry. That's probably wise. James R. White on Facebook suggests that RZIM itself should distribute their resources to other ministries and quietly turn out the lights instead of just changing their name and continuing on.

Not a fan of James White but I got to admit Ravi's sin was going on for years and obviously was not what he preached about. His words may be true and from the word but now knowing how he lived they are empty of meaning to him. He was an amazing actor at least.

It seems to me that Comfort is creating a divide where none need exist. Ravi Zacharias' problem was not that his apologetics was intellect-based. His problem was the sin in his life. I suppose one could argue that Ravi was never a genuine Christian because he only had intellectual knoweldge, but no personal relationship with Jesus, but that is not something we can possibly judge. Only God knows that. I'm really puzzled by Comfort's approach here. It seems that he's just co-opting a current headline to talk about a message he wants to get out there, that is only very tangentially connected. I also note that one group Comfort neglected to express compassion toward is Ravi's victims.

I do like Comfort's no-nonsence approach of getting down to the essentials of the gospel message. So many people have never actually heard that.

Regarding the specific subject of this video, I think there is room for both intellect and heart in apologetics and evangelism. I guess I would see apologetics as one aspect of evangelism. I think apologetics is important because when you are trying to reach intellectual people (the kind of deep thinkers that geeks often are for example) you need to be able to provide some rational argument. These people need an intellectual basis as a foundation. Yes, it takes more than argument, but argument is often the necessary first step. Does that conflict with the verse Comfort quoted? Good question, but apologetics reminds me of 1 Peter 3:15 "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

Or to sum all of my thoughts up in with the popular meme "why not both?"

AdamCollings wrote:Or to sum all of my thoughts up in with the popular meme "why not both?"

That's about the sum of my thoughts when I see conflict between the "presuppositional" apologists and the "evidential" apologists.

(Or even between Calvinists and Arminians sometimes…)

JDMTheGreat wrote:Not a fan of James White but I got to admit Ravi's sin was going on for years and obviously was not what he preached about. His words may be true and from the word but now knowing how he lived they are empty of meaning to him. He was an amazing actor at least.

I'm allowing for the possibility of something much more complex in Ravi's inner life, because I know my own inner life is complex and messy.

I can imagine Ravi, or someone in ministry engaged in ongoing secret sin, having days where they justify it to themselves and other days when they repent and say "that was the last time". I remember in college, as a volunteer in the worship ministry, I was also regularly engaging with pornography, and taking extensive measures to ensure no one would ever know. My faith was very real to me and held deep meaning for me. When I sang solos on a Sunday morning I meant every word, sometimes even more passionately because of the sin I kept secret. And God used that ministry to bless people, despite my sin. So I can easily imagine the same was true for Ravi. Then again, there have been falls from grace in ministry that revealed a shocking lack of true faith. Either way, we can only speculate.

Paeter wrote:

JDMTheGreat wrote:Not a fan of James White but I got to admit Ravi's sin was going on for years and obviously was not what he preached about. His words may be true and from the word but now knowing how he lived they are empty of meaning to him. He was an amazing actor at least.

I'm allowing for the possibility of something much more complex in Ravi's inner life, because I know my own inner life is complex and messy.

I can imagine Ravi, or someone in ministry engaged in ongoing secret sin, having days where they justify it to themselves and other days when they repent and say "that was the last time". I remember in college, as a volunteer in the worship ministry, I was also regularly engaging with pornography, and taking extensive measures to ensure no one would ever know. My faith was very real to me and held deep meaning for me. When I sang solos on a Sunday morning I meant every word, sometimes even more passionately because of the sin I kept secret. And God used that ministry to bless people, despite my sin. So I can easily imagine the same was true for Ravi. Then again, there have been falls from grace in ministry that revealed a shocking lack of true faith. Either way, we can only speculate.

IDK Paeter the report was pretty explicit that his behavior was predatory in nature and the fact he attacked someone to keep it secret ruining her life pretty much. I'm not saying the work he did should be erased. I'm saying we can't put him up as a paragon of virtue anymore and should be weary of his teachings. We should also see how RZIM reacts to this as that will speak to their character as they had looked into the matter but dismissed it all just based on his character or what they thought his character was. It's a real shame he gave unbelievers such ammunition because they will use it regardless if it's a bad argument to make. And no one who came to Christ through him should question their faith what man intends for evil God can use for good.

JDMTheGreat wrote: IDK Paeter the report was pretty explicit that his behavior was predatory in nature and the fact he attacked someone to keep it secret ruining her life pretty much. I'm not saying the work he did should be erased. I'm saying we can't put him up as a paragon of virtue anymore and should be weary of his teachings. We should also see how RZIM reacts to this as that will speak to their character as they had looked into the matter but dismissed it all just based on his character or what they thought his character was. It's a real shame he gave unbelievers such ammunition because they will use it regardless if it's a bad argument to make. And no one who came to Christ through him should question their faith what man intends for evil God can use for good.

Well I haven't read the report myself, so I can't comment on that. And I'd agree with you and go even further and say that no one should have EVER put him(or any Christian) up as a paragon of virtue. I also agree that we have good reason to be cautious regarding what he taught, in particular the many anecdotal stories he used as persuasive tools.

I think what I wanted to put out there was simply that we can't assume we know what his faith meant to him or specifically assume that the words he taught were empty in his own estimation. (Unless the report quotes him as saying something of that nature, which would be pretty good evidence.) We just can't get inside his head. But maybe that's not what you meant when you said his words were "empty of meaning to him".

Paeter wrote:

JDMTheGreat wrote: IDK Paeter the report was pretty explicit that his behavior was predatory in nature and the fact he attacked someone to keep it secret ruining her life pretty much. I'm not saying the work he did should be erased. I'm saying we can't put him up as a paragon of virtue anymore and should be weary of his teachings. We should also see how RZIM reacts to this as that will speak to their character as they had looked into the matter but dismissed it all just based on his character or what they thought his character was. It's a real shame he gave unbelievers such ammunition because they will use it regardless if it's a bad argument to make. And no one who came to Christ through him should question their faith what man intends for evil God can use for good.

Well I haven't read the report myself, so I can't comment on that. And I'd agree with you and go even further and say that no one should have EVER put him(or any Christian) up as a paragon of virtue. I also agree that we have good reason to be cautious regarding what he taught, in particular the many anecdotal stories he used as persuasive tools.

I think what I wanted to put out there was simply that we can't assume we know what his faith meant to him or specifically assume that the words he taught were empty in his own estimation. (Unless the report quotes him as saying something of that nature, which would be pretty good evidence.) We just can't get inside his head. But maybe that's not what you meant when you said his words were "empty of meaning to him".

I feel this is more like a fruit of the spirit sort of thing, can a tree both produce good fruit, bringing more people to salvation, and such rotten fruit, praying on vulnerable women? Speaking of someone struggling in sin but trying to do better I'd like to think that sort of person would be waiting for an out in some manner? He was nearly exposed on this three to four years ago, he had the opportunity to repent very publicly, instead he chose to destroy a woman's life.I have no doubt God can use Ravi's ministry for good, but as for him I'm not so confident I'll see him in heaven as I'd hoped to since he was a large impact on my faith. Makes me double take on other theological heavy weights I listen to regularly.

JDMTheGreat wrote:
I feel this is more like a fruit of the spirit sort of thing, can a tree both produce good fruit, bringing more people to salvation, and such rotten fruit, praying on vulnerable women?  Speaking of someone struggling in sin but trying to do better I'd like to think that sort of person would be waiting for an out in some manner? He was nearly exposed on this three to four years ago, he had the opportunity to repent very publicly, instead he chose to destroy a woman's life.I have no doubt God can use Ravi's ministry for good, but as for him I'm not so confident I'll see him in heaven as I'd hoped to since he was a large impact on my faith. Makes me double take on other theological heavy weights I listen to regularly.

Okay, I think I see where you're coming from on this. It sounds like we land at different places on some of the finer points related to Justification-Salvation, obtaining/retaining eternal life, or Lordship Salvation Vs. Free Grace Theology. I don't want to derail this thread and I feel like I've said enough on my position about those things elsewhere. I'm also totally fine with their being a diversity of views on those issues here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.