Agents of Shield Season Finale [PROBABLY SPOILER FILLED]

Anyone want to discuss this?

I loved it and saw a lot of theological concepts that may have been over simplistic, but still was exciting to see on screen!

Oversimplified... good word for it.
I loved the episode/s, and I liked the sacrifice theme. It may not have been theologically profound or anything, but the use of the cross necklace seemed like a definitive nod to where their inspiration for it was coming from.
Forgiveness, especially undeserved forgiveness...more grace than mercy... came up as well. Even forgiveness given before being asked for.

On a more mundane note, they took the addiction aspect seriously. I love this show and am so happy that I restarted watching it after giving up on it early.
It really helps to have a podcast like Welcome To Level Seven, of course.

I also liked that they built on a theme of personal responsibility that was introduced in Civil War as well. Cap says to Bucky that he should not be held responsible for his actions as the Winter Soldier since he was under someone else's control. But Bucky responds "But I still did them." In Agents of SHIELD, they also explored that theme with Daisy, trying to convince her not to guilt herself into oblivion by reminding her that she was under Hive's "sway." But she still pointed to the fact that swayed or not, she still did the things she did that hurt others. Great fodder for discussion on the idea whether we responsible for the things we do, or can we be excused by claiming "the Devil made me do it!"

The best bit of serious dialogue (the humorous ones are the more memorable) was when Daisy says that Lincoln is paying for her mistakes, and Coulson says quietly "No, he's paying for all of our mistakes." Jam-packed with basic atonement theology.

I know that Joss self-identifies as an atheist, but is that also true for his brother Jed and Jed's wife Merissa? I ask as this is a very sympathetic, honest and non-ironic presentation of gospel concepts in a primetime network entertainment program.

Even though the episodes have been getting more and more over the top weird, and I sooooo badly want Grant dead, I've enjoyed the series. However what the heck with the last 5 minutes? It was like totally random and felt out of place too me. I think it had been better if they left all that out, it just didn't flow. Otherwise....dang, will someone really kill Grant!!!

CreatorsPixels wrote:Even though the episodes have been getting more and more over the top weird, and I sooooo badly want Grant dead, I've enjoyed the series.  However what the heck with the last 5 minutes?  It was like totally random and felt out of place too me.  I think it had been better if they left all that out, it just didn't flow.  Otherwise....dang, will someone really kill Grant!!!

Uh, Hive/Grant died. Got blown to bits. Maybe you're thinking about a previous season?

cleireac wrote:

I know that Joss self-identifies as an atheist, but is that also true for his brother Jed and Jed's wife Merissa? I ask as this is a very sympathetic, honest and non-ironic presentation of gospel concepts in a primetime network entertainment program.

I had the same thought. there was a episode back in Season 1 that also had a strong Christian theme to it and I think Jed and/or Merissa also wrote that episode to it.

cleireac wrote:I also liked that they built on a theme of personal responsibility that was introduced in Civil War as well. Cap says to Bucky that he should not be held responsible for his actions as the Winter Soldier since he was under someone else's control. But Bucky responds "But I still did them."  In Agents of SHIELD, they also explored that theme with Daisy, trying to convince her not to guilt herself into oblivion by reminding her that she was under Hive's "sway." But she still pointed to the fact that swayed or not, she still did the things she did that hurt others.  Great fodder for discussion on the idea whether we responsible for the things we do, or can we be excused by claiming "the Devil made me do it!"

I'll take up a point of view here. In the Capt America series, the Winter Soldier is forced to do things, via conditioning, that he doesn't want to do. ... remembers, perhaps, but might not even be aware of doing at the time he does them. He has no choice in the matter. The "devil" really did make him do it.
For Daisy Quakes, she does what she does willingly. It is true that she is under the sway of emotion altering drugs of a sort, but she decides what she will do and has a certain amount of leeway in how she performs those actions. When she shakes the SHIELD base, she does it knowing that she is hurting those who she still considers friends.
For my two cents, Bucky takes too much guilt or what he did, and Daisy... well, she is forgiven which is much more powerful than guilt.
Consider this, as it is in the news lately: George Zimmerman's gun. The gun he used to kill Trayvon Martin is up for auction. Now, regardless of where we stand on the initiating tragedy, Trayvon's family would be pretty disgusted by that gun, right? It would be completely understandable if they wanted to destroy that gun. However, if that gun became sentient and said that it was sorry for what it was used for, that it was haunted by that experience, would we sympathize with them wanting to destroy it then? The same goes for Bucky, in my opinion, except that as a human he is more likely to "come to his senses" than a gun. (although, in a comic book universe, who can tell?) I can understand Stark not wanting to be around him, but kill him? That just seems like the egotistical, spoiled Stark throwing a temper tantrum.

Yes. It is still in keeping with Stark's character.

I do understand where you are coming from with regard to Bucky's inability to choose right. Yet, Paul does not let anyone off the hook when he writes in Romans that the human condition, marred as it is by sin, prevents us from doing right even when we want to do it. Only the transforming work of Christ makes it possible for us live in obedience to the Spirit.

I think these scenes and bits of dialogue help us think through the issue of personal responsibility. I'm not sure we will come to a totally satisfactory answer. These are, after all, fictional stories and while I find them useful, all illustrations break down at some point.

I'm enjoying the conversation. Hopefully we can tease more out.

Well, if you want to get to a spiritual level...
I'm sure that without killing people, Bucky had done things that were sinful.
But, imagine this as the scenario. Instead of brainwashing Bucky, Hydra simply dropped him off a building on to someone to kill them. In the fictional universe where brainwashing is the equivalent of that, who holds the moral blame, Bucky or Hydra?

I think we can agree that Hydra is the biggest offender here and that within the context of the situation Bucky would be exonerated for his part. That said, I appreciate the fact that Bucky is taking responsibility for what he's done, under someone else's control or not. I think I agree that he's taking too much of the responsibility, but I do appreciate the fact that this scene makes us question our assumptions. Tony was willing to accept that Bucky was set up and was probably innocent, but for the fact that Bucky killed Tony's mom. So how far are we willing to go, and where do we draw the line?

"I can do this all day."



Just kidding, but I am enjoying the discussion (as I said before).

"I can do this all day."

Ha! I was once part of a multi-year, 8900+ response thread about whether or not atheism is a religion belief system on the Dan Carlin forums. (in fact, in looking up the numbers I just replied again) You don't scare me with a little moral ambiguity.

I did just post more of my thoughts on the subject here: http://geekklesia.blogspot.com/2016/05/captain-america-civil-war-and-book-of.html

Again, I like the fact that it makes us ask the questions, rather than just going for the easy answer.